A conversation with James Gordon
by Erin Oldynski
My first encounter with James Gordon’s work was seeing his anti globalization musical Hardscrabble Road at the Registry Theatre in January. I was there with The New Quarterly and environmental magazine Alternatives to launch the twinned issues of artist as activist and creative communities.
James has performed at previous events for The New Quarterly and his writing has appeared in two of our issues -- his “Hometown Tunes” piece was published in our summer 1996 issue and his “1001 Canadian Nights” piece about being on the road was part of last year’s comedy issue.
Last month I met with James in Guelph at a really charming vegetarian restaurant/café/venue of sorts, known as the Cornerstone Café. I’d taken the train in from Kitchener with my friend Owen, who is from Guelph and knows James through their shared interest and involvement in the local music communities. My main interest in meeting with James was to talk with him about how he got started on the path of performing -- whether it was with his folk group Tamarack, directing and performing in musicals, or touring solely as James Gordon -- and to what ends he has used this interest to deliver messages about relevant social issues along the way.
The “interview” which was more of a conversation over breakfast, really, lasted a little over an hour and covered a lot. Through the sound of clanking dishes, intermittent visits from the server, and background conversation, I was able to later transcribe the conversation from the digital recorder I’d brought. The following is the full version-- excerpts of it appear in the newsletter Peace Out and on the website foundinthemargins.com
-----------------------I guess a good place to start is, what were some of your early attempts at activism and what was the outcome- What got you started as an activist?
It’s become impossible for me to separate what I do as a profession, as a writer and a musician, from my so called “activist” career in that when I’m on the road -- because I’m not coming to a community as a tourist, I’m usually welcomed in as a visiting artist- I always feel like I get to see a side of a community that others don’t. I can’t tell you when I started to write songs that were about activist issues because that just comes from observing. I like to make sure that my songs aren’t necessarily about me but are sort of reflecting what I’m observing and what’s around me, and I found that people were anxious to use me, so to speak, as a voice. They would say things like, “Here’s what’s going on in my town,” and “Did you know this? And maybe you should write about that?” And sometimes I would, and the more I did, the more these things started to come to me. It was almost as if I was filling a void. I can’t think of an issue that I thought, “I’m pissed off about this, I better get to work on it.” It came more from other people being pissed off about things -- and maybe I’m the kind of guy that can let people know about it. As soon as I took on that role, I would start to do it myself, saying, “Well, here’s something that people need to know about and maybe I can make a difference.” We artists are very egotistical, really. I mean, we only do this because we think that we can make a difference, right? Otherwise we wouldn’t be bothering. But over the last five years, I’ve been just totally thrilled that I can actually see some of the work that I’ve been doing that does make a difference. And how cool is that?The second half of my question is, or perhaps to rephrase the first one; why do you think you’ve developed a political conscience? Not everyone is inclined to.
When I started playing music professionally, I’d chosen a style of music [folk] that [reflected] my interest in Canadian heritage and culture. I noticed that there weren’t many people out there doing that and that I was actually singing songs that were two hundred years old, songs about early settlers and miners. I was providing a voice to old dead people. That sort of started me on the path of being a story teller -- I became a story teller myself by writing my own songs. It was a natural leap that I would be drawn to aspects of social justice and political awareness because I started from human stories. I’ve realized that I’d get as bored as I’m sure you would if someone is preaching to me about an issue. No one wants to hear me whine for two hours about why it is that big corporations are ignoring three quarters of society. But if I can say, “Look, this is an actual person,” then you can say as a viewer or a listener, “Hey, maybe that could be me.” And then it becomes more personal. I think I’ve been guided by the artistic principle that you can make a difference as an artist if you can do a combination of the universal and the local. When I’m singing to you and writing stories, you need to know that there’s enough of myself in it- that I’ve invested enough passion and heart in it- for you to care about it. But if it’s something that you can’t relate to- that you can’t find yourself in too- then you’re not going to be interested in it. And that’s the universal aspect. There needs to be something that someone -- anyone -- listening can find. That’s why I like to reduce things to a more personal story. That human face helps to advance a cause, really.One of the messages I got from the play is how the preeminence of corporations threatens the essence of what it means to have a community.
Well, yes, and another message I was trying to get across in the play is that where we used to rely on our neighbours, friends, and families for a sense of community, the preeminence of these giant corporations and of consumerism has replaced a lot of that. A whole generation has been raised not thinking that their lives would be fulfilled if they found a strong community to be a part of, or if they’ve shared what they have with others. [Instead,] they feel as if they’re fulfilled by accumulating more stuff, right? When I grew up- and I’m pretty old- there just wasn’t that much stuff out there for one thing, and it wasn’t our global obsession to acquire it.
What sort of things do you do in your daily life that are consistent with your political beliefs?
Well, on Tuesday for instance, I’m leading a discussion group that’s trying to move forward with a campaign to get Nestlé’s bottling plant out of Guelph. I’ve also found myself really involved with the Wal-Mart campaign here.What happened with that?
We lost. They’re there. But, you know, it’s an interesting kind of defeat because we kept them out of Guelph for eleven years. We raised enough issues so that I think people understand a little bit more about the benefits of shopping local. I make sure that I shop local and buy produce that I know where the farm is. And shopping this way means that you’re healthy and you’re more educated and you’re supporting the local economy and that you’re reducing your energy consumption. Always carry a little cloth bag with you instead of getting a plastic bag when you buy something -- just little things like that. Just try to be conscious of leaving that light footprint on the planet. It’s actually surprising the personal gratification of knowing that maybe I’ve eased up on a land fill a little bit today. These are things that people can get into.
Now for some specific questions about Hardscrabble Road. Do you ever worry about getting sued? Because you explicitly target Nike, the Gap, and Wal-Mart.I’d like to get sued.
Yeah?Well it’s good publicity. In fact, the Wal-Mart song that’s in the show, I’d actually written before Hardscrabble Road. But I thought that there was a bit of a story within the song and that you could envision the characters in it, so I decided to make a story about the specific characters. The song was actually recorded by a Canadian songwriter but his record label wouldn’t let him put it on the album because they were worried that his album would never be sold at Wal-Mart stands! Well I thought, “Yeah, that’s great!” And I purposely mention some of these places like the Gap -- and I had to check with a lawyer -- because as long as it’s my personal opinion, I’m allowed to express it. If I said something offensive about the president of the Gap, then he could sue me. But if I say that Gap’s goods are made in sweatshops in Southeast Asia by people making a dollar a day, that’s actually true.
Well, you can’t argue with that.
No, you can’t. And their lawyers would probably say, “Well, we’re bringing much needed jobs to those communities and we’re bringing a product here that people need, and you don’t have to buy our stuff,” I can point a finger and say that because places like Wal-Mart and the Gap end up cornering the markets in some of the communities that they go into, you are eliminating our choice for where we have to buy things. There are places in the states that I tour where Wal-Mart has literally cleaned out the town. There’s an empty drive through blocks and blocks of boarded up buildings and I know what’s next -- there’ll be a Wal-Mart at the edge of town. So if they’ve eliminated your options for buying local or shopping local, then they’re having a really negative impact on the community. I don’t feel like it’s dangerous for me to be speaking about that, if you’re talking about a personal liability thing. You’d be surprised -- I’ve never had trouble with the corporate stuff.
If I get into trouble, it’s when I’m touring in the United States and talking about peace -- I’ve had hate mail about songs. One of the benefits about the internet age is that if I write a song about the war in Iraq and I can’t wait until my album comes out, I’ll put it on my website. It’s happened that people find it and send threatening letters that say things like, “Don’t ever think about coming to Buffalo.”Well, I grew up in the states, in Pittsburgh, and we had the army in our lunchroom every single day of the week since the war started, recruiting.
You’re kidding!
They had a table set up and they would walk around in their uniforms, talking to the students during lunch. A lot of students signed up. I went to a city school and people either didn’t have the money to go to college or just didn’t know what to do with themselves.
And they’re exploiting a situation, too, right?
I just don’t understand why the school system would ever allow that.
Were most of the songs written for the musical? You said that the Wal-Mart song was written beforehand.
I would say that there were six or seven songs written beforehand. I got the album idea for the show after fans would say that there was something in common with them -- that they seemed to be speaking from the same place. So the play came together from me drawing a map, in a way. I thought about the ways in which the songs were related and what could happen based on the links that were already there. It happened that way -- it was a fairly organic process.
Fifteen years ago I wrote a series with another guy -- a two hand musical production mostly for kids where we toured around schools -- called Jim and Dave’s Awesome Environmental Adventure. I did this because I realized that it’s a slightly larger canvas to work with. Instead of just getting up and singing some songs, I found that you can engage people by telling a story and by giving them characters that they can identify with. I did one about endangered species and one about the environment and every day recycling. Both were directed toward kids, who would then take these messages home to their parents and say, “Hey do you know what those guys told us today?” But Hardscrabble Road was the first full length production.
Did anyone help you with the theatrical part of it- with setting up the stage or anything?
No, although maybe I should have -- it’s not my area of expertise. Although, since the play was written, I seem to have accidentally developed a play writing style and a theatrical style that started off based on simple logistics and economics. I knew that I wanted to get this play out there but I also knew that I couldn’t make it a really big stage production because it would just be too expensive. Otherwise, no one would be able to afford it unless- I got a corporate sponsor! And no one was going to do that. So because the actors play the parts of homeless people in the musical, I figured that it would just take place on the street. I wanted to keep it simple.
I’ve since done a number of other productions and I have another play opening in April here in Guelph that is based on the premise of just a few people who all play different roles. It starts with the same premise of Hardscrabble Road-- that they’re a band but also the actors. If I wanted to put on a musical and needed six people in the band and six actors, automatically I’d be up to a dozen people, but if the actors are the musicians, then the problem is solved. Which I was hoping made it quite accessible in that way.
In these community plays that I worked on, I wanted to communicate directly with the audience. Actors automatically create a bit of a wall between themselves and the audience and I was hoping that they would be getting at the audience more directly than being seen as just someone telling a story. So that’s where I started. And if the concept works, it’s because I’m just taking it from a different angle. But the angle that I started with was, “How the hell am I going to put on a play without any money?”I thought that you were able to really reach out to the audience by bringing members of the audience onto the stage -- for instance, when one woman was given the Gap hat and the actors sang all around her, and involving picketers in the protest scene. I actually threw some of the money onto the stage whenever Jeremiah was playing the guitar. I thought that these were all good ways to get people involved and break down that wall that you mentioned.
One of the coolest things for me -- and I remember this because I just got around to counting all of the coins -- is that at that show, in those couple of minutes when the actors go out to collect money from the audience, we got one hundred and fifty dollars to give to the local food bank!
Wow! I never would have guessed that much.
So I was able to write a cheque to the Waterloo Region Food Bank on Friday for the $150 that we raised at our show, and in Toronto I got $300! Something about that show made people instantly think, “Oh, I can do something.” They reached in their pocket and they did it, right there.
After the show I found out that the woman you saw who got up to wear the Gap hat, was from a woman’s shelter! I’d given the shelter around a dozen tickets and she got up on stage! So, how cool is that?
It’s still a really hard sell. I mean, I’m thrilled with the response to that show but I can’t for the life of me interest real theatre companies on the production. It’s a little bit too outside -- although I didn’t think that the subject material was that controversial. I think that they do find the play too controversial because the average theatre is trying to sell theatres to bus tours and little old ladies, and that’s not the right subject material.
Well, the part where you dress up as Stephen Harper the dictator might not go over very well with the general population!
Well, no, but I’ve had little old ladies -- not to make fun of little old ladies -- that I was hoping on some level were just out for an entertaining night, from a musical theatre standpoint, and I would hope that they would get that. I don’t want to be just a preaching machine. I’m still an entertainer first.
Why create a love story in the musical -- did it just seem fitting with the genre you were working with?
I was conscious of the trappings of a musical but I also wanted to make it personal. The conceit of the play is that in the first half, we learn how each one of the six characters got there. Although they are homeless, presumably they’ve formed some sort of a bond through their personal relationships. I wanted to connect some of the characters, which was a challenge because there’s no dialogue- it’s all sung. I created one of the characters -- the woman that was Jenny Diver who had the shopping cart -- as the motherly figure that protected everyone. I gave them all some way in which to relate, so a love story seemed to be one way to do that. But you’re right, I think it was also a little bit of a bow to the genre too.
What books have you been reading recently?
The Upside of Down - Thomas Homer Dickson
I’m reading this book by Thomas Homer Dickson called The Upside of Down- he lives locally, up in Fergus -- and one of his theses in it is that we’re going to have to learn soon that accumulating stuff doesn’t equal happiness at all; in fact it leads to more stuff and more isolation. We have to turn it around so that we recognize that the mark of success, or, [a person’s] greatest achievement in life, isn’t how much money you have, how many possessions you have, or what rank you have in society, but that it’s how you’ve found a place with a nurturing family- whether that’s in your immediate family or if you have to create a family- and that there’s no greater reward than that. But it’s going to take a lot of education for people not to think that you’re some sort of flake if you suggest that.
Water for Elephants – Sarah Gruen
I love fiction. One fiction work that I’ve read recently is Water for Elephants by Sarah Gruen, a western Canadian writer. It’s set in a circus in the 1930s, during the Depression era. I’ve always had this fascination with circus -- just because of the freaks, the sub culture of it and the carnies -- I’m drawn to characters like that. I’ve also got the germ of a musical, to write about Jumbo the Elephant -- the star of the Barnum Circus in the 1880s. He was the world’s largest elephant -- a big tourist attraction -- and was killed in St. Thomas, Ontario in a train accident. In this story, there’s a rumour that the elephant committed suicide because it was sick of being on the road. There is also a conspiracy that the elephant was being too costly by the promoter of P.T. Barnum so they decided that they would do away with him, but still make it a dramatic story and get a lot of press out of it. They actually stuffed the elephant and toured with the bones for another twenty years. It was just as big a tourist attraction after it died.
The Final Confession of Mabel Stark – Robert Hough
Shakespeare
I don’t think people normally just gravitate toward reading Shakespeare plays -- but they’re good! I’ve recently written an adaptation of a play for the Shakespearian Festival in April. I just went through and read a lot of Shakespeare plays and learned a lot. My goal was to pick one that I really cared a lot about -- one that I could write a whole musical about, based on the story. I saw that once I picked my play, I was able to do more research to bring out the issues that I thought were hinted upon in the play. As you’ve seen in Hardscrabble Road, I’m interested in playing up the disparity between the rich and the poor. I’ve noticed that in Shakespeare’s plays, he tends to make the poor people the comic characters that don’t get to have relationships -- there’s no love affairs with the poor -- and he calls them the “rude mechanicals” or the “homespuns.” They’re very one dimensional. What I noticed through reading his plays is that he was very much a snob! So I discovered that there was another story within the play. That was a fun reading exercise.
Barrow’s Boys – Fergus Flemming
Guelph Speaks: Restorying the City
This is an anthology of stories. Someone was given a grant to just go around the city and collect stories -- and I have to confess that I got the book because one of my stories is in it. But they’ve done exactly what I’ve been trying to do for years -- and that is to just tell a story of a community or a place by focusing on individuals and their different perspectives. One story is about a woman who was an Italian immigrant and lived down in the ward, and she talked about what it was like for her in the thirties. You get to know a community by hearing stories and there are theories that what lasts in a community are the stories. Stories will last longer than the architecture and the people -- and actually, what we are collectively, are stories. That’s why I’m so drawn to them.
Visit James on the web at www.jamesgordon.ca
